Edward Snowden, PRISM whistleblower

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Should the United States prosecute Edward Snowden for revealing secret information on PRISM surveillance scheme?

Yes, he's betrayed his country and shall be prosecuted.
1
4%
No, he did good to his country.
22
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Total votes : 23

Postby synthetic » Fri Aug 16, 13 11:56 am

Someone finally voted 'yes' there, too. Interesting.
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Postby Psychotic » Fri Aug 16, 13 4:36 pm

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, though I am curious as to why they think that way.
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Postby ~DJ~ » Fri Aug 16, 13 11:16 pm

yeah, I wanna know too.
that and.. where is the 1%??!
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Postby Aidan » Fri Sep 06, 13 3:30 am

Some recent news:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/s ... s-security



Surprise surprise, the NSA has even MORE power now.
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Postby Psychotic » Fri Sep 06, 13 8:09 am

What disturbs me is the NSA justifies it as the "price of admission", as if they still think the Internet is some US-owned property. It's not, and it never has been. As if spying on not just Americans but the entire world is their divine right.

The plotline of Deus Ex draws nearer and nearer. Can you feel it?

Perhaps it is worse knowing that the NSA and GCHQ are not the masters in this puppetshow, they are merely the hammer and nails used in it's construction.
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Postby Hanover Fist » Fri Sep 06, 13 9:11 am

Conspiracists probably gave them the idea :o
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Postby Psychotic » Fri Sep 06, 13 9:44 am

In the time between my post and now I've had an immense inner turmoil and have come to the sudden realisation that I have no understanding of the NSA's motives, or their puppetmasters.

Answers such as "control", "power", or "money" are all well and good but I'm struggling to find a reason to spend $200 million a year on the idea that you'll make it back in a few years time. It's an investment, andit it one they haven't seen turnaround since its inception a decade ago.

For decades, governments and individual parties have been fighting a cold war. Amongst the shadows they fight for global dominance. They want the power to control the world and they want to get rich doing it. I don't see the point, myself, since having so much money seems utterly fruitless but, alas, that is the only true motives I can see that they might want.

Now some of you might think that I'm merely trying to justify their actions to myself in a bid to better come to grips with the situation. Perhaps you are right, but I in no way, shape, or form, justify the actions that the NSA have done now or ever against the "free people" of America and the world. Nor will I. I simply refuse to believe that spending $200 million a year is the right way to go about control and argue that any one of us could do better.

The concept of having our information, of knowing our deepest, darkest secrets, does not seem so scary to me anymore. Is it bad? In a way, yes, they will now have unlimited access to your porn collection and all the other nasty secrets you keep locked away online but, in general, this "control" is largely over the hundreds of millions of people who are already under their control anyway.

Knowing what the millions of mindless sheep thing doesn't seem worth $200 million. Beneficial, yes, as it makes it a lot easier to sway public opinion and enact certain policies, but they can and have done that without the internet for years, so why spend nearly $1 billion over the past 10 years trying for seemingly little gain?

The biggest concern would be that having the power to get into any internet service would mean ultimate control against those who wish to usurp them. The power to stop revolutions, as it were, or any ones that might pop up. But as great as that sounds it didn't work well in Deus Ex and the internet hasn't been needed to make revolutions work well in real life. $20 million for Prism I can understand. $200 million for encryption-cracking I cannot.

The idea of paying hundreds of millions of dollars in the hopes you'll make billions back in your lifetime seems such a worthless investment. The PRISM concept, being what it apparently costs, sounds far more reasonable, despite perhaps being much harder to implement. Even concepts like SOPA can't be that expensive in comparison and opt to do the same thing.

So congratulations, NSA. You have started gaining access to billions of gigabytes of information that you probably already knew about. At best you will be able to use it to find dissenters and get rid of them, but you didn't need the internet for that before and you certainly don't need it now, so paying upwards of over a hundred million for the utility seems a bit excessive.

When I wake up to military coups and open warfare then I will be afraid but, right now, I refuse to be. Syria seems far more important in light of this.

Perhaps I'm just not cut out to be a puppet my entire life. Which is effectively all the NSA is, and they'll be dropped like one the moment their usefulness comes to end. I would be interesting in seeing peoples arguments to help me see the "error of my ways", so to speak.
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Postby Hanover Fist » Fri Sep 06, 13 9:35 pm

Lol who wrote that one? What's inception a decade ago?
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Postby Hanover Fist » Fri Sep 06, 13 9:41 pm

The media is becoming enlightened by an information era.
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Postby Aidan » Sat Sep 07, 13 5:31 am

Magniir wrote:In the time between my post and now I've had an immense inner turmoil and have come to the sudden realisation that I have no understanding of the NSA's motives, or their puppetmasters.

Answers such as "control", "power", or "money" are all well and good but I'm struggling to find a reason to spend $200 million a year on the idea that you'll make it back in a few years time. It's an investment, andit it one they haven't seen turnaround since its inception a decade ago.

For decades, governments and individual parties have been fighting a cold war. Amongst the shadows they fight for global dominance. They want the power to control the world and they want to get rich doing it. I don't see the point, myself, since having so much money seems utterly fruitless but, alas, that is the only true motives I can see that they might want.

Now some of you might think that I'm merely trying to justify their actions to myself in a bid to better come to grips with the situation. Perhaps you are right, but I in no way, shape, or form, justify the actions that the NSA have done now or ever against the "free people" of America and the world. Nor will I. I simply refuse to believe that spending $200 million a year is the right way to go about control and argue that any one of us could do better.

The concept of having our information, of knowing our deepest, darkest secrets, does not seem so scary to me anymore. Is it bad? In a way, yes, they will now have unlimited access to your porn collection and all the other nasty secrets you keep locked away online but, in general, this "control" is largely over the hundreds of millions of people who are already under their control anyway.

Knowing what the millions of mindless sheep thing doesn't seem worth $200 million. Beneficial, yes, as it makes it a lot easier to sway public opinion and enact certain policies, but they can and have done that without the internet for years, so why spend nearly $1 billion over the past 10 years trying for seemingly little gain?

The biggest concern would be that having the power to get into any internet service would mean ultimate control against those who wish to usurp them. The power to stop revolutions, as it were, or any ones that might pop up. But as great as that sounds it didn't work well in Deus Ex and the internet hasn't been needed to make revolutions work well in real life. $20 million for Prism I can understand. $200 million for encryption-cracking I cannot.

The idea of paying hundreds of millions of dollars in the hopes you'll make billions back in your lifetime seems such a worthless investment. The PRISM concept, being what it apparently costs, sounds far more reasonable, despite perhaps being much harder to implement. Even concepts like SOPA can't be that expensive in comparison and opt to do the same thing.

So congratulations, NSA. You have started gaining access to billions of gigabytes of information that you probably already knew about. At best you will be able to use it to find dissenters and get rid of them, but you didn't need the internet for that before and you certainly don't need it now, so paying upwards of over a hundred million for the utility seems a bit excessive.

When I wake up to military coups and open warfare then I will be afraid but, right now, I refuse to be. Syria seems far more important in light of this.

Perhaps I'm just not cut out to be a puppet my entire life. Which is effectively all the NSA is, and they'll be dropped like one the moment their usefulness comes to end. I would be interesting in seeing peoples arguments to help me see the "error of my ways", so to speak.


Mate, I agree 100% with all you have posted.

Something WILL happen within the next 10-20 years. There WILL be a huge change, so we can hope. Although the problem is, everyone is too tired, lazy, busy, ignorant these days to BECOME that change.

On a global-political scale the US can only get away with so much until other Countries stomp their foot down.
Last edited by Aidan on Sat Sep 07, 13 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby synthetic » Sat Sep 07, 13 5:32 am

NSA's recently revealed course of may indeed be nothing out of the ordinary, but letting such conduct slip would be far more significant - almost like inviting future dystopia to our home by accepting it or humbling oneself to it.

I think you pretty much nailed the reasons why large scale surveillance exists, whether it causes confusion or not, and its fairly clear that at the very least the Chinese and Russians have similar programs. Most large nations are interested in gaining an advantage, but some are better equipped, greased for it than others.

Perhaps the way this entire scale of privacy breach could be better explained is by realizing that we live in information era. We occasionally hear about it, see signs of it, have come to take internet for granted, but do we really know what information era means?

For me a pretty good wakeup call was the event couple years ago where russian hackers effectively shut down half of this country due to some stalinistic views. Next thing I hear, estonian instructors are involved with NATO in educating other nations on how to fight a cyber war.
Last edited by synthetic on Sat Sep 07, 13 5:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Aidan » Sat Sep 07, 13 5:47 am

synthetic wrote:do we really know what information era means?


Love this dude.



It's true. Most people do not know what it means, and mainly because this is a milestone in the timeline OF the "Information Era." We all have the means to share what we want over the internet, but with no control.

No control are two words Governing bodies hate. We have now reached a point where so much information of all sorts are being flung across the internet, that ANYTHING could happen. Human communication has increased at an alarming rate. Too much for most Governments to handle.

While most of it may be junk, that the NSA doesn't care about, there ARE horrid situations which the NSA can correct.

The problem is that they've kept themselves a secret since the Bush administration, and do not draw the line on what informational content they review. They do not tell the truth, or answer anything properly. Why should anyone trust something that keeps secrets about how they operate IN CIVILIAN SECTORS.

First and foremost, nobody likes being kept in the dark, which is why there is a LOT of heat on the NSA.
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Postby Psychotic » Mon Sep 09, 13 6:49 am

The Information Era. Remember that when the world forgets the upcoming revolution.

Don't get me wrong, with the way we're going I totally see one happening, but we can also look up a list of revolutions and see how well they turned out just by looking at what we are faced with today.

Is life as bad as it was way back when? Perhaps not, but ignorance is ignorance and it keeps on breeding.

I shall keep on fighting, or complaining, rather, but the reason I'm cynical is precisely because the world has waited too long already.

People change but not nearly enough. People forget and they forget far too easily.
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Postby Poor » Sun Sep 15, 13 5:09 pm

I believe that the Internet and the "Age of Information" has had some severe negative effects on society. Information is quickly corrupted from it's original factual form by 1), people who twist it to support their own viewpoints, and 2), ignorant people who are unable to understand the information and come to faulty conclusions. Humans cannot reliably process information rationally. The more information, the more misinformation. Misinformation distorts a person's perception and breeds distrust and hatred.

It is my belief that the heavy division between the left and right and the government and it's civilians is exasperated by human ignorance and misinformation. They are filled with promises of gloom, doom, and paranoia and are unable to realize how good they have it. Some imagine America is falling from a golden past, forgetting the lack of government transparency, the rogue CIA, lack of civil rights, lax labor laws, and the horrible human medical experimentation of the 20th century. I believe that, relatively, America is in a golden age although many don't realize it. I believe that most politicians and police are good-hearted people and care about the people (but say this online and you will undoubtly be called a shill). I know that the majority of Americans would never be foolish enough to consider revolution or anything crazy like that but if it ever did happen I would fight against, not with, the rebels.
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Postby Psychotic » Mon Sep 16, 13 2:04 am

I agree with most of what you're saying but keep in mind that manipulation of information isn't new. A good portion of information has been manipulated to serve someone elses needs for over a millenia. History is a good example of this: In school we learn about the "heroic" and the "just" but we're not necessarily told the full story.

It's worse now largely because the flow of information has increased, but the concept is not new.
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Postby Clancy Stein » Mon Sep 16, 13 2:11 am

The Revolution is largely instigated by the frustrations and search for glory of young males that feel oppressed and wronged (sound familiar? - this is the symptom of recruits for military and religious cults/factions. There will be militias, and there will be confusion, propaganda, and altogether disconnection from reality within every single one of the organizations, especially the ones that perceive they are the most enlightened... prompting the establishment and the most despotic groups to commit the greatest deeds and atrocities in the name of a doctrine.)

This upstart has already begun: http://youtu.be/rNR6Kbg5jJ8
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Postby Psychotic » Mon Sep 16, 13 4:32 am

Oh yes. Where there is young there is revolution.
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Postby Aidan » Tue Sep 17, 13 12:02 am

Magniir wrote:Oh yes. Where there is young there is revolution.


I agree. The old are too comfortable, and just don't care anymore.
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Postby Psychotic » Thu Oct 03, 13 12:18 pm

http://lavabit.com

"This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States."


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/1 ... _unsealed/
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Postby Aidan » Thu Oct 03, 13 8:13 pm

Magniir wrote:http://lavabit.com

"This experience has taught me one very important lesson: without congressional action or a strong judicial precedent, I would _strongly_ recommend against anyone trusting their private data to a company with physical ties to the United States."


http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/1 ... _unsealed/


Kudos to Levison. We need more people like him, telling the Feds off, and not complying. The USA is corrupt as ever, and many more people are beginning to realize it.
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Postby Psychotic » Fri Oct 04, 13 12:00 am

Frankly, I don't think it matters in the end.

Levison, Snowden and others like them have given up their entire lives for the sake of integrity. Integiry I can respect, but integrity that will not get them very far if the people don't wake up.
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Postby Aidan » Fri Oct 04, 13 12:11 am

Magniir wrote:Frankly, I don't think it matters in the end.

Levison, Snowden and others like them have given up their entire lives for the sake of integrity. Integiry I can respect, but integrity that will not get them very far if the people don't wake up.


Yeah I agree. I think it matters that more people (although mainly corporations) are beginning to stand up against this. All we can really hope, is that it rubs off on the American citizens, encouraging them to do the same.

I think for ANYTHING to happen:

- The American people need to protest on a massive scale (+2nd amendment if really necessary)

OR

- The US agenda will expose itself eventually. They ARE becoming messy lately. When 1.6 Billion rounds of ammo are purchased for homeland security, it raises concern.
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