Ethical victories [for article to our Knowledge Base]

[Dae]

For those who didn't see the previous discussion:

There's a section called "Debatable issues" in our Knowledge Base, where I plan to place 3-5 articles about most arguable things in Deus Ex community from different points of view. I want you to discuss each subject and some posts from each topic will be copied there.

Our previous discussion has been converted into an article in Knowledge Base, as we spoke.

The second article is called "Ethical victories".

What's the crux? There are many players who complain about some weapons and techniques being "cheap and unskilful" — for example, using LAW rockets or using a Spy drone augmentation only in order to drain energy. If you ever played ATDM most likely you heard complaints that "20mm shells are for noobs". The authors of such statements imply that the only way of fair fighting is fighting using rifles ("rifling").

Deus Ex multiplayer offers a variety of ways to play. This variety is especially constrasting in gametypes involving augmentations — not necessarily ATDM, but also Stargate, ArxGenus.

Please, state your opinion by answering the following questions:

• How "having fun" is related to "winning" for you? I mean, is it for possible for you to, say, have fun while losing?
• Would you use the the whole arsenal of the game which is available? In other words, would you use, say, LAMs in 0aug? Would you camp if you saw a nice spot?
• How important are opinions of other players about the ways of playing you've chosen?
• What you consider more skillful: captious playing using all the available means, or playing in a fair way using standard ways like "rifling"?

Thanks to those who reply.

[Jon]

When I play a DXMP game, I aim to win and have fun. If this involves using methods which others would find cheap or unfair, so be it. My opinion is that if you enter a server, you are under that server's regulations. If those regulations include GEP Guns in the spawn areas, LAMs and HE20mm left inside cabinets to use, or LAWs left in the map, I would be inclined to use them - if they're in the map, then use it by all means, to win.

On the subject of camping, If I saw a nice spot and it was in the dark out of sight, I would most likely note that spot for later reference, and plant a grenade there if anyone else chooses to take advantage of that spot. I would return occasionally, but wouldn't spend all of my time there - I find waiting around for enemies to come, a dull experience at best.

The thick and thin of it is that it doesn't really matter to me how other people feel in the server towards my standard of gameplay, provided my verbal conduct is kept in check. If you don't like the way people play on a server, leave - it really is that simple.

[Spiderbot01]

LAW's are amazing.

[MainMan]

I guess people see it as more "skilful" to kill with an accurate weapon, i.e. one that does not damage an entire radius. (e.g. Sniper, as opposed to LAM)

At the end of the day though, it is all down to preference, and one of the main features of DeusEx (Single Player) is variety and choice - e.g. variety of augs, choice of weapons, choice of tactics for approaching a goal, etc.

This freedom of choice can be (but often isn't) translated to MP. We can clearly see that it was intended to be done, from features such as locked cabinets/doors, special ammo, turrets, and of course the availability of weapons such as GEPs or LAWs - so use them!

Another reason why it is considered "noobed" to use those weapons is because new players are attracted to them, for the aforementioned reason of variety, simply because they "go boom" and "make explosions." This is an aspect present in all players to some degree, so certain players feel superior by suppressing this "inner noob" in themselves, and using rifles.

So to conclude, LAMs and WP are the illest!

[~Hy[ß]rid~]

* I can have fun when I'm not winning, just as long as I'm doing reasonably well.

* I'd use most of the Aresenal for sure. Yes, I would camp.

* It's not important too me, obviously.

* Captious playing using all the available means


I'd never call someone with a GEP, LAM or Shell a newb. If I can't avoid it and use the right augs, it's my bad.

[Mastakilla]

LAW's are amazing.

Yes yes yes.

[Zantinzuken]

Q1: A true augger is somone who utilizes everything around him, not someone who is balls deep in rifles.

Q2: I'd only use rifles in 0-augs, because you're given the appropriate augs to counter lam/shell kills in atdm, in 0-augs you're given nothing.

People who reply with "but itz strategy lawl" in 0-augs, when they use lams/shells, are only kidding themselves into thinking they have skill.

Q3: You'll always get a few skill-less fudge barons who believe the way they play the game is "the way DX was meant to be played."

Q4: It is certainly more skilful to play with just rifles, holding your own against others who will do anything to kill you has some skill involved. That doesn't mean it's the smartest way however.

[synthetic]

# If my aim seems pretty much ok and I dont lag and the enemy is clearly superior it means the game is too intense not to have fun, no matter what the score. It is easier to have fun in atdm ctdm while loosing though, but that mostly means good amount of players in server, like near-full server. That is pretty much guaranteed fun even if some ass keeps killing you.

# If server has weapons they are there for players to use, but no, I dont think LAMs are balanced for 0augs and that is why I only use them if some jackass keeps killing me with them. Mostly that ends with me doing suicide runs into the enemy and lam-jumping onto them, or dying while trying.
I do not camp, I may stay longer in certain area if situation demands but generally I move everywhere on the map. I do not look well upon camping.

# To some point it is important to me, but i should get rid of that. You use what you use.

# Using all available means well is clearly more skillful as the player can adapt to atdm and the streak advantage in number of ways. I and my clan mostly sticks to clean rifling and I cant say I am very happy to get shelled, but other than that, in augs everything goes. I guess I should start using shells more myself.

I pretty much agree with what zanti said aswell so I suppose his post complements to mine pretty well.


While thinking about these problems and trying to come up with an answer I stumbled across something I dont really know how to handle..

# DXMP has suicide option. In fact there might be default button for it, I dont remember. In 0augs that suicide is practically useless and only annoying. In augs that function is undoubtedly annoying times ten as you are preventing the enemy get the kill, but how should this issue be taken? Is it allowed? Should it be? The function is there and has a point in atdm or ctdm.
HOWEVER
# Disconnecting from battle or reconnecting, or abusing 'debug gpf', as I believe some streakers probably are, are definitely not fair methods and such players clearly deserve a ban if they make it a habbit.
--> perhaps some mod can be made that notices if the player executes any of these commands, or any commands that allow him to leave the server and claim gpf. Could perhaps function by just showing in public log that the player executed the command, reconnect can be useful if player is lagging out or what not.

Also, I believe 0augs should have some bomb devices, but hard to come by. After all we are talking about terrorists and military units here.
Current lam has perhaps OK damage, but clearly FAR to short re-spawn time and some maps have LAMs in abundance.

[[FGS]ShadowRunner]

How "having fun" is related to "winning" for you?

Yes, very much so, in the original single player game, killing everyone and everything, especially with explosives means you will lose vital pick-ups, augs, credits, messages and clues... On the Beginner's Server, good players come to reassure themselves they are good, racking up huge scores, using all weps and trying to win. However a large proportion of their kill is with heavy weapons or against people who do not understand spwnkilling is acceptable everywhere else. The "good" player on the Beginner's Server, is the one who can operate like the Single Player, only using necessary force, only killing good players who are trying to kill, not killing people that didn't have a chance. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Another way of answering the question is considering the opposite. There is no fun for me to get 30.0 against 500 ping players from New Zealand such as Eagle and Garman, it's very repetitive and boring. However if I stop shooting and let them fire, automatically it becomes more interesting.

* Would you use the the whole arsenal of the game which is available? In other words, would you use, say, LAMs in 0aug? Would you camp if you saw a nice spot?

I agree totally with Zant and Rand12om. Lams should be harder to find than on Sanctum and Iceworld, even in augs the lam on the roof of Damnation Alley, spoils the map and allows lazy people to spwnkill...
Camping is acceptable, however players should try and keep the action going and a 1 v 1 on a DXSG map, with one guy camping can get irritating. Same thing with people cloaking on Area51, it is unnecessary and adds to stale moments of gameplay...

I also agree with Jon's point, the question is relative to the server rules.

* How important are opinions of other players about the ways of playing you've chosen?
This depends entirely on the server and it's rules. On Beginner's server it is crucial. A player who is shooting unarmed guys, only speed augging into spwnrooms, only camping and LAWing the spwnroom or doing other stuff which does not give the beginner a taste of combat and chance to see the result of his aim, is only heading one way = banned! These rules only exist in the knowledge that there are other servers who will not use the same rules and they exist to be deliberately unfair in the favour of the less-skilled player.

* What you consider more skillful: cautious playing using all the available means, or playing in a fair way using standard ways like "rifling"?

If the other weapons are hard to find, hard to retrieve and the player must choose carefully where to use them, then perhaps the damage done is the reward for acquiring the weapon. People moan about ppl using 20mm, but if they camped the 20mm and shot anyone trying to get it, there would be no cause to complain. It's part of the map design. Someone who is an incredible sniper should also be skilled enough to use tactics to win. If I go on a good ATDM server, hardly anyone is using Gep, but on beginners I recommend ADS as a start-up augementation.

I would LAW and LAW and LAW until the enemy decide to do something about it... If the enemy whine instead of fight, just laugh to yourself. Listen to admin's and don't waste a moment typing.

Obviously this debate boils down to a matter of self-respect. You want Maximum respect but you also want to win. Only you can decide where the middle-ground is... don't let others decide that for you, respect admin rules but don't allow other players to dictate your game.

[Baleout]

How "having fun" is related to "winning" for you? I mean, is it for possible for you to, say, have fun while losing?
I have fun as long as I kill at least one person before I die on average. That or if something interesting or different is happening, like if everyone decides to start using crowbars and pepperspray or the map is funline/rpg.

Would you use the the whole arsenal of the game which is available? In other words, would you use, say, LAMs in 0aug? Would you camp if you saw a nice spot?
In augs, I use whatever I can get my hands on. There are ways to dodge pretty much everything. In 0augs, however, I don't actually look for Lams or HE etc. I normally dont realise there are lams in the game until someone uses one on me, and then I will get one if I happen to be passing. It is the same with HE.
I used to camp quite a lot, but I found I get many more kills by running around the level. If there is a good spot and I can see a few players running about (A51, CMD) I will stop and snipe for a bit before moving on.

How important are opinions of other players about the ways of playing you've chosen?
If someone is complaining whenever I kill them with X weapon, I usually don't listen. I myself used to hate explosives, and got annoyed when I was only getting killed by GEPs etc, but I learnt that there are ways to protect myself from all weapons.
I wont listen to players swearing or spamming "omg omg Plasma nubs", but if I am killing to easily with one kind of weapon and people seem bored or annoyed, I will change.
What annoys me the most is when I am testing out a new theory or tactic (e.g. Spy Drone), and people call me a noob for it.

What you consider more skillful: captious playing using all the available means, or playing in a fair way using standard ways like "rifling"?
If you are playing against good players, it is a challenge to invent the most clever tricks, as a battle between two players with full stocks and Ballistic Protection can take ages, and even then one player will probably run off somewhere.
Against new players, however, it is a much greater test of your skill to use weapons suck as combat knives or darts, rather than using rifles and killing easily.

[Professor Layton]

# Of course it's possible to still have fun while losing, as long as it isn't something like having 20 deaths in a row. Same actually counts for winning, if you keep getting massive streaks, like 20 for example, it will get boring eventually.

# I wouldn't use a lam in 0 augs, unless the opposite team is using them over and over, simply as it's pretty much undodgeable in 0 augs, when the lam is thrown well. I would never camp long in one spot either, because against less skilled players it would result in a very boring match where I'd end up with a massive streak, if the players haven't already left because they can't get a kill. Against better players I wouldn't camp long anywhere as well, as it shouldn't take them too long to sneak up on me, and kill me.

# There's a big load of players who complain all the time if you don't use sniper, as the other weapons are so called "nub wepz", simply because they can't use them. Of course they can just whine as long as they want about it, as I won't change my playing style in that case. If it would involve things like using 20MM in 0 augs however, I would stop, if they kept complaining, but then again, I'd probably stop even without their comments, as there's no fun in having a overpowered weapon, compared to others.

# Especially in augs, I would consider one skillfull if he tries to get kills by all means. For example: Player A is better at rifling than Player B, instead of just dying all the time, Player B could try to use a different tactic to take down his opponent, as his chances are minimum to take down Player A by just rifling, once player A has a streak of about 4 kills.

In standard 0 augs game nowadays (No heavies, turrets, lams, etc.), the problem is that there are no proper alternatives to rifling, apart from the pistol, simply due to other weapons mainly relying on a certain aug. But when I would be up against players much worse than me, I would just take another weapon than just rifles, to make the game more fair for them, and more enjoyable for both sides.

[Spiderbot01]

Using a flamethrower in 0 augs is funny, because no one quite knows how to take it. Melee snipers are screwed, because unless they're lucky, no way are they gonna get a hit. Also instead of just shooting at me, people actually turned their back and ran.

Any weapon can be skillful if you us it right, I'm not saying I'm skillful with a flamethrower, but if people don't know what to do about it, I'd say well played.

[Professor Layton]

Yeah, as long as you use proper tactic, a lot of weapons can still be effective, even in 0 augs. DTS for example is a proper weapon too, if you can manage to get close.

[synthetic]

flamethrower isnt über-leet heavy so i dont really know why it was taken out from 0augs. In fact it takes quite a bit of work to use if effectively. Not the worst weapon though.