Suicide

[DarkKnight]

WAIT!

(sorry Seraphiel, not ment to you)

No, I am not, out of all the things that you posted, this is probably the 25th thing that you are wrong on. I don't want to be cool, I am right, I support my facts along with the experience I had in my life.

But... you have learnt this from personal experiance in your life... which means that you have come to this conclusion that you hold so tightly in your life, am I correct?

Seeing as how that is what you have plainly stated.. I will assume so.

How can you tar all life with the same brush that you paint your life with? Your life has worth and meaning to you every time you get on this forum and argue with us, you are using your life to argue a belief that you belive in so strongly, that is called a meaning.

Also, since you are trying to be a 'wise guy' (I'm sorry, but there is hardly a grammatical place for the vocabulary you use.) do me a favour; Explain your theory in it's fullest.
you are currently floating on a few ideas and shifting to a point of view when an attack comes your way, so let's establish some ground rules and we'll go from there.

My belief (Anyone feel free to argue it):
Life is precious.
All life that has a meaning is precious.

Sucide is pointless.
Life get's bad, very bad at times, but it is better to live and learn then kill your self.

Truth is never truth.
The truth you speak of my friend is your truth, it is a view seen through your eyes.

Life is far from an illussion.
I life is real because it has purpose to me,

Before you post something like "You can belive what you want blah blah blah", stop, think, think, and then think some more. Answer not with a flame war of how you don't give shit etc, answer with at least 3 ground rules to your belief.

Of course, by argueing with me or Alex over your belief you are giving your life more worth... but hey indulge me.

[AlexDenton]

My belief (Anyone feel free to argue it):
Life is precious.
All life that has a meaning is precious.

agreed, but life with no meaning can be given meaning, therefore it too is precious to an extent

Truth is never truth.
The truth you speak of my friend is your truth, it is a view seen through your eyes.

depends on what truths, for example, as seraph stated, universal truths apply to us all

by argueing with me or Alex over your belief you are giving your life more worth... but hey indulge me.

i tried to say that, but he replied with an insulting post saying my post was meaningless



on the whole, great post stevie
nice going

[clyzm]

Ok .... I'll reply one last time before you all really start to get on my nerves...

DarkKnight - Truth is not the truth of another lie. Think ABOUT that before you start posting stuff saying "Life is precious, my friend marco is right blah blah blah blah". Got it?

Marco - Now I'm insulting? First off, think before you actually post that. Like I said in maybe 3 posts, I'm trying to make a point in which none of you understand, you all want to see, I'll let you see.

Second off, you are THE most insulting person I have ever seen. Not only do you post irrelevant matters concerning nonsense of my posts *which REALLY ticks me off*, add that to making my theory seem like a pipe dream. Really, what I'm trying to say, you are basically saying "your theory is bullshit mine is better and has more facts and opinions". Now, if that doesn't make sense to you, I'm afraid you are not as smart as you think you are.

Lastly, please, please, PLEASE, do not insult my theory. I have not insulted yours nor anyone elses.

Seraph - Good thinking, however you must realize that most "universal truths" aren't exactly what they seem

Now, will all of you, please, please, PLEASE make some sense into your theory instead of offending mine.

If you are going to be so smart and take time on your theory and insults, then please don't direct your insults to me.

If you want me to agree to your theory, whether I like it or not, then fine, I'll agree to it.

[Marouku]

Everyone has their own opinion.

If you can't live with it, then leave.

Sex?

[AlexDenton]

Second off, you are THE most insulting person I have ever seen. Not only do you post irrelevant matters concerning nonsense of my posts *which REALLY ticks me off*, add that to making my theory seem like a pipe dream. Really, what I'm trying to say, you are basically saying "your theory is bullshit mine is better and has more facts and opinions". Now, if that doesn't make sense to you, I'm afraid you are not as smart as you think you are.

i am not insulting intentionally, but the fact that my posts disagree with yours may cause aggrivation and i am sorry if they do, but i am not going to change them

none of the things i posted are irrelavent

i never called your theory a pipe dream. as a matter of fact i was the one who said it was an understandable theory, and discussed why someone would use it

however, i fail to agree with your theory because it simply does not appeal to me, yet never once did i insult it... do not make things up

you were the one who called our posts "meaningless" and included "false logic"

and lastly, though people may think i am some sort of genious, i know i am not, and far from it, but i can tell from this discussion, i know a hell of alot more than you do

Seraph - Good thinking, however you must realize that most "universal truths" aren't exactly what they seem

expand on that please
from what i see in seraph's post, his comment on universal truths is 100% correct, and from experience with talking to the man, i can tell that he knows alot more about things of that nature than all of us on this forum put together, so i would form a strong arugment before disagreeing with him

[AlexDenton]

i started my post before you made that, so i never saw it

besides, we aren't even discussing opinions anymore, its gone off on a tangent about argumentative techniques

it never ends!

(hmm, what would JEOH do?

*runs around naked* )

[clyzm]

Second off, you are THE most insulting person I have ever seen. Not only do you post irrelevant matters concerning nonsense of my posts *which REALLY ticks me off*, add that to making my theory seem like a pipe dream. Really, what I'm trying to say, you are basically saying "your theory is bullshit mine is better and has more facts and opinions". Now, if that doesn't make sense to you, I'm afraid you are not as smart as you think you are.

i am not insulting intentionally, but the fact that my posts disagree with yours may cause aggrivation and i am sorry if they do, but i am not going to change them

Indeed you should be sorry.

none of the things i posted are irrelavent

That's as contrived as your spelling of the word.

i never called your theory a pipe dream. as a matter of fact i was the one who said it was an understandable theory, and discussed why someone would use it

You made me felt as if though my theory was a pipe dream, seriously, you cannot tell the difference between saying and thinking, can you?

however, i fail to agree with your theory because it simply does not appeal to me, yet never once did i insult it... do not make things up

Yet, never once did I insult it? You thought my theory has so many holes in it. You thought I didn't make sense, relevant to my theory, so you think my theory doesn't make sense. That's called insulting.

you were the one who called our posts "meaningless" and included "false logic"

I did. But you called my theory or relevances to it "nonsense".

and lastly, though people may think i am some sort of genious, i know i am not, and far from it, but i can tell from this discussion, i know a hell of alot more than you do

True, but in spelling, grammar and punctuation, you seem to know not a lot

Seraph - Good thinking, however you must realize that most "universal truths" aren't exactly what they seem

expand on that please

Meaning most universal truths are lies. I am setting a point on that comment.

from what i see in seraph's post, his comment on universal truths is 100% correct, and from experience with talking to the man, i can tell that he knows alot more about things of that nature than all of us on this forum put together, so i would form a strong arugment before disagreeing with him

Indeed.

[AlexDenton]

none of the things i posted are irrelavent

That's as contrived as your spelling of the word.

a typo, well if it is contrived, then go and get some evience

I did. But you called my theory or relevances to it "nonsense".

negative
i called your posts nonsense, because of the lack of sentence structure

True, but in spelling, grammar and punctuation, you seem to know not a lot

we have had this discussion before
i am merely typing like this to save time
i have an english qualification that surpasses anything you can get your hands on, so do not attempt to insult the way i type - as that has nothing to do with whether i know how to do it or not
the thing that is most worrying is your word choice and sentence structure which aren't always... comprehendable - leave it at that

Meaning most universal truths are lies. I am setting a point on that comment.

contradictary use of truth and lie in the same sentence
if they are lies - tell us why, how, and how you came to that conclusion

[clyzm]

Evidence, you mean.

Contrived means very thought-out, planned, and the example of how contrived your theory is is the same spelling as "irralevent".

Lies are connected to truth.
The truth ... is never known. It is mostly a lie to most people, such as me, but to other people, it's the truth.

(btw Marco, you should really try the Subjected and State Test of Grammar and Spelling, and no, I was in the spelling bee a number of times at a very young age, won them a lot of times, I know how to spell and use correct grammar better than you do.)

[Conceited]

( I was in the spelling bee a number of times at a very young age, won them a lot of times, I know how to spell and use correct grammar better than you do.)

go you!

you're being so lame, stop picking out little shitty things and contine your arguement about suicide.
Marco doesnt care how you spell or how excellent your gramatical capabilities are. you obviously know you are wrong and, in the process, resorting to the way people type to put them down.

go and get a girlfriend, it'll do you good.

[clyzm]

Already have one, and sod off.

[clyzm]

Someone should really report you for spamming, Ben. This isn't a topic about girlfriends, this is a topic about suicide.

(btw check your inbox)

[Marouku]

Someone should really report you for spamming, Ben. This isn't a topic about girlfriends, this is a topic about suicide.

(btw check your inbox)

Ben didn't mention GFs.

teh tom did.

[OFF]Btw like me new siggeh? [/OFF]


Now, all of you.

There is really no need to argue. The opinions stated in this topic are just that: Opinions.

No one is right. No one is wrong. It is good to voice your opinions, but not when it turns into an "intellectual flame-war".

[clyzm]

I agree.

(off)yes.(off)

[DarkKnight]

Now, all of you.

There is really no need to argue. The opinions stated in this topic are just that: Opinions.

No one is right. No one is wrong. It is good to voice your opinions, but not when it turns into an "intellectual flame-war".

Good point, however I am not in it for the fact of being right or wrong, I am in it for the sport.

depends on what truths, for example, as seraph stated, universal truths apply to us all

Universal truths are truths seen the same by a group of people, nothing more. Indeed a larger amount of people may agree with the truth spoken, but only because their view falls into the same area that the truth covers.

This happens a lot with morals and such, it is how we set a benchmark for socity to behave. Collectivly as a people, we can say "We belive that admins are admins" and to us, it is a truth, we see it clear as day, however to someone else that truth may be something more like "Admins are over-rated moderators.".

Truth is the greatest scam to hit the airwaves since freedom.
(There is never real truth, there are versions of truth. To put it shortly)
[I incourage feed back on this]

DarkKnight - Truth is not the truth of another lie. Think ABOUT that before you start posting stuff saying "Life is precious, my friend marco is right blah blah blah blah". Got it?

Ok, four things:
1. The truth you speak of is not a universal truth, you claim death is a truth, however, death can not be proven to be the last breath we hold, nor can it be proved the other way around.
2. I did not say Marco was right, stop trying to put words in my mouth and start using the brain you are trying to convince me you have in spades.
3. You have not outlined your belief, I am waiting.
4. Don't flame me again. I am holding a converstation on a subject that goes deep into the morals of everybody on this forum, some people will stand their ground till death, others will simpley ask everyone to be happy with their own opinions. What I am attempting to do is deceifer your belief, you have given us, the forum, very few details. You flamed people for honestly expressing their views that contridicted with yours, you refuse to acknowledge that your use of grammar is not perfect (spelling != grammar) and flame anyone who says other wise.

Alex and my self have only been trying to make you think past your theory, however as yet you are unwilling to step outside the constraints of your theory and give another idea a thought, prehaps just incase it makes sence?

I see more to this theory then a simple "I understand it and you don't!". Prehaps this was a theory built up over time out of nescity, prehaps the reason you have come to this theory is because you needed a way not to care anymore, if so I must say you found the perfect theory.

(Trying to point out any spelling mistakes will get you no where, everyone here knows I can't spell.)

[clyzm]

When it was all settled ..... you started it again.

When the FLAME WAS OUT ... YOU ignited the flame .. yet again ...

Doesn't anyone notice here that I am not the flamestarter .... but you and Marco are .... whenever I try and settle something ... stating "okay, you can believe what you want to believe .. i can believe what I want to believe ..." you shove it right back into my face with a big fat "NO I WANT TO KEEP ARGUING" ......

Didn't you notice that just now? Our posts say "Calm down, its an arguement, we can think our own opinions" and yours say "no, we keep arguing until Derek realizes that life is better than death" ....

[MrBlackDX]

tis called debating, however debates only work when the people within are subject to persuasion, and not stubborn as a mule, otherwise it is just throwing your argument at one another with little to no affect

[DarkKnight]

When it was all settled ..... you started it again.

When the FLAME WAS OUT ... YOU ignited the flame .. yet again ...

Doesn't anyone notice here that I am not the flamestarter .... but you and Marco are .... whenever I try and settle something ... stating "okay, you can believe what you want to believe .. i can believe what I want to believe ..." you shove it right back into my face with a big fat "NO I WANT TO KEEP ARGUING" ......

Didn't you notice that just now? Our posts say "Calm down, its an arguement, we can think our own opinions" and yours say "no, we keep arguing until Derek realizes that life is better than death" ....

For gods sake, go take a vallium milkshake or something.

Maybe it might not be clear to your keen eye, but I don't visit these forums every day. Hence I am unable to reply in the prime of the subject. However, I belive this topic is important, weither or not you reply is your own problem, I couldn't give a shite either way, this topic is not about -you- it is about the topic and the effects the topic can have. By arguing with you the topic it's self has moved futher then if everyone agreed on one point of view.

Stop thinking this whole thread was made so Alex and I could pick on you.

MrBlack: The point of a debate is to prove one side right or wrong, however as I have already stated:

I am not in it for the fact of being right or wrong

So although you may consider this a debate, I consider it something else, it is a topic that doesn't get voiced much in the public spotlight, it get's swept to the side, people like Derek add to the feeling that potential suicde victems get that no one cares about them and the world would be better with out them, hardly true in most cases.

Derek, if you want to stop me responding to -your- posts, then don't post.
It is that simple.

However, if you feel strongly enough about your beliefs, you won't stop posting untill we both run out of wind.

[AlexDenton]

derek

you have lost
or at least, that is what it looks like to most of us

stevie did not flame you at all, but instead gave you an opportunity to express your opinion

however, due to your response i have right to believe that you don't even understand a word of this theory of yours, yet more proof that you read it somewhere and adopted it without knowing what it means

if you want to prove me wrong here, then post back with a legitimate argument, but until then, it looks like you were bluffing

PS- i know what contrived means, and i understood your attempted sarcasm, what i was referring to, however, was the ironic fact that you called my theory unplanned, when in reality its the opposite that is true

PPS- your avatar, do you know what that means?

[Jeoh]

I love it how people like to correct eachother's spelling without looking at the post.

*Blows smoke off his Spam-Gun*

[MrBlackDX]

DarkKnight

i was pointing out that this isnt a debate, as i feel a debate tends to be a discussion where someone who is at a certain stance dicusses their point with someone who feels differently, the point of a debate is not necessarily to prove someone wrong, but can also be to find a middle ground of collective feelings

and Marco

theres no winning or losing in a discussion like this, people who are proven wrong are still winners because when u are proven wrong you should feel enlightened instead of empty, because u have learnt a new way of approaching the argument

however, in certain peoples cases, some people will throw everything back into ur face just to keep Pride, and pride is a great case of how people will lie to themselves, and lieing to urself is never a good thing, therefore

Pride = Evil

and some people need to wake up and smell the coffee about that point

oh and checked inbox btw Dez, as i said before i dont hate u, i merely cant be bothered, so unless u r threatened by me in some ridiculous way then u dont need to post messages

unless u want me to reply?

[DarkKnight]

however, in certain peoples cases, some people will throw everything back into ur face just to keep Pride, and pride is a great case of how people will lie to themselves, and lieing to urself is never a good thing, therefore

Pride = Evil

and some people need to wake up and smell the coffee about that point

Well spoken, reminds me of: "Pride goeth before a fall"

[Seraphiel]

"Good thinking, however you must realize that most "universal truths" aren't exactly what they seem"
Right, well, here are all the universal truths you use. A better choice of words would probably be "Universal Applicators" (something that you apply to anything, regardless of truth). For the sake of such an arguement, I address them as a truth, and then apply the reasoning that if something is a universal truth it is pointless to worry or address it. You make these universal assertions, and that is fine. By asserting these things, you imply that you think they are true. That is also fine. I am just saying that by making these things true, you are also destroying their relevency. Anyway....here is a list of your use of universal assertions, truths, or applicators...whatever you want to call them.


"In reality, nothing is precious. Our life is not precious"

"We are born to die. "

"There IS no true point of being alive, sure, you rescue someone from cancer, but it doesn't matter, either way he/she will die, too bad."

"LIFE DOESN'T EXIST"


So if those are all true (which I don't think they are) we should live life without worrying about them. Nothing we do can change those from being true, so trying to make those not true is pointless. Worrying about them is pointless. Thinking about them to the point that it interferes with your life and living is the most pointless of it all.

Again, I don't agree with all of those:

"In reality, nothing is precious. Our life is not precious"
Just because life is temporary doesn't mean it isn't precious. The quality of being precious is defined by a person's desire for and attachment to it. When many people desire, long for, and place great value in one thing, it is deemed to be "precious". Life my not be precious to you because it has no value to you. I am sorry if that is the case. Life is precious to most people, therefore, it is precious. Even more so if it is temporary. That mean's you only have a bit of time. If you want to spend it worrying about how little time you have, how futile it is, go ahead. You'd be right to say it is futile, you'd be right to say you have a little time. It is a shame you want to waste that little time you have worrying about it.

"We are born to die."
If the purpose of our birth is to die, then we would all be stillborn. Debateably, our purpose in birth is to live for a set number of years and then die. Death is an inevitable part of life and being born...but it is not the only part. It is just the only permanent part (again, debatable, but I am remaining secular).

"There IS no true point of being alive, sure, you rescue someone from cancer, but it doesn't matter, either way he/she will die, too bad."
LIke I said earlier. This is true. So what? What does this mean to me? It means that regardless of what I do, at some point this person is going to die. However, I bet they would rather live longer, I would rather them live longer, and their families would rather live longer. Why should I worry about their looming death in another 10 years of a heart attack when I can celebrate their life for another 10 years that they wouldn't have had. You might say such celebration is pointless...it isn't as pointless as sitting there in the corner saying "oh well you are going to die anyway"

"LIFE DOESN'T EXIST"
No, it is just temporary. You can argue that because it is temporary it lacks existence. Then you can argue about the definition of "existence". I've done all that, and I've been there. In the end, there is no way to define existence and whether we in fact exist. Accepting that, don't worry about it, and just be.


Finally, you repeated several times that our lives don't matter to the rocks on the ground or to the universe as a whole. If earth blew up it wouldn't matter to the universe as a whole. True. Nothing matters to the universe as a whole, nothing matters to a rock...so why give them a say? Why even take them into account? Our existence means nothing to them, but so does any nonexistence that we could hypothetically incur.


And it is also impossible to know that anything of what I said, especially regarding the propery of "unversal truth" is, in fact, true. There is no way to be 100% sure. That in itself is a universal truth...and again you can't be sure of that. That is the nice thing about this philosophy is that it can act as a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sure there is no way to know if something is a universal truth, so don't worry about proving it 100%.

The same goes towards an opinion. Yes they are opinions with no way to settle it absolutely and finally...if there were we probably would have settled the whole issue of life centuries ago. So knowing that, don't bother saying "this is just my opinion," "That is just your opinion, " "You won't convince me to change." That is obvious...I...they...and you are just expressing opinions because we can and we want to.

Now I have to go teach a class. Sorry for any typos, I wrote this in a hurry.

[clyzm]

I have not lost ... I just seem to be inactive when you are active and active when you are inactive.

Now, on to the topic.

I will conclude this debate with a final word:

We are not meant to kill ourselves. We are meant for God to take our lives, but we should enjoy our life meanwhilst in order to remember something in the great afterlife (if there is one).

Our life is a memory to us when we die. It is an image to remind us that we need to be happy for who we are.

Suicide comes to people who want to take their life miserably. Suicide doesn't come to people who don't want to take their life, instead live it.

However, death can overcome life, but that doesn't mean that life shouldn't be cared for, for it is an element of our souls.

Merged with fate, death and destiny, life can be good at sometimes, pity, sad, and other emotions that we can feel during our life.

However, life isn't that great for some, the greater our lives are, the more we wouldn't have to worry about death.

'Tis a strange thing, life. It is a tool. It works out the way your souls want it. If your souls want it to work out bad, it will. If your souls want it to work out good, it has a good chance of working out good.

Overall, life is a tool, good for some, bad for some, it doesn't matter, as long as we use it.

Happy now? Now, no more arguing over the fact that I just said what you have just said or something like that.

PS - Marco, 'tis the pentagram of hell/satanic worship, but as you may have noticed, a shield is around it, preventing something but I just cant tell what ...

PSS - All of you who have supported your theory with your own beliefs, good and outstanding job. Very supportive of you, very excellent theories. Fine job on the arguing skills, too

PSSS - Mr. Black - please do not bother me, as you are dead.

[Jeoh]

EDIT: alexdenton

dont ever post anything so fucking stupid again, ok?

[MrBlackDX]

PSSS - Mr. Black - please do not bother me, as you are dead.

on your own there Derek

[Marouku]

Im getting tired of this topic...the posts are too long and they are all saying relatively the same thing.

[AlexDenton]

finally, derek, we are getting a conversation going

now, back the the original point

If your souls want it to work out bad, it will.

yes, but i see one of the meanings of life is to prevent that from happening in a sense

what i mean by that is, if all is going badly, and bad luck is surrounding you, instead of giving up and saying "life is miserable" say "i can battle this" and do everything in your power to turn your fortune around, and make life happy, and prosperous

PS-

Marco, 'tis the pentagram of hell/satanic worship, but as you may have noticed, a shield is around it, preventing something but I just cant tell what ...

nein, read the general flood, the pentagram has nothing to do with hell
nor does satan, in fact, have anything to do with hell

[clyzm]

Pagan pentagram ...

[AlexDenton]

Pagan pentagram ...

check the general flood, nothing to do with hell