Deus Ex Alpha

There's a section called "Moot points" (by the way I'm glad to hear any other suggestiond about it's name) in our Knowledge Base, where I plan to place 3-5 articles about most arguable things in Deus Ex community from different points of view. I want you to discuss each subject and some posts from each topic will be copied there.

The first article will be about spawnkilling.

Do you consider spawnkilling a "sin"?
Would you ban for it if you were admin?
Is that blue energy shield a good protection against it?

Thanks to those who reply.

The blue protection thing should give you enough time, so for me there is no such thing as "spawnkilling", spawncamping however is a whole different story, and different subject I guess

I'd say that the blue protective shield is a fair defence, but when someone's camping a spawn with a GEP, just waiting for that shield to drop, to pull whatever trigger the GEP has, that's just -really- annoying IMO. I'd say that's spawnkilling, else, the shield is adequate protection

Finally, tips on how to spawnkill most effectively.

...

Don't even pretend you weren't all thinking that.

Doesn't bother me much, sking I mean. In Iceworld it's kinda annoying.

If you're good enough, you can avoid sk'ing (except in Iceworld with a lot of people >_>).

However, it's not good for the newbies starting out, they'd just get pissed off and leave, a longer shield time would be better methinks...

lol effective spawnkilling, I should write a guide about effective team killing.

Why? Nothing to it - point the gun at a green and shoot until dead.

TK-ing, that looks like an accident then...?

Do you consider spawnkilling a "sin"? I consider it to be stupid and noobish.
Would you ban for it if you were admin? Yes, i would, if they didn't stop when i've asked them nicely.
Is that blue energy shield a good protection against it? In my opinion, no. The spawn protection shield doesn't protect you at all really, all you need is some ass standing behind you with a shotgun ready to blow your brains out.


[Semi-Offtopicness] Allan, why don't you add the blue bubble as protection for people who're typing in your Anti-TK mod? [/Semi-Offtopicness]

Lol, I remember roachee camping at spawns all the time, I'd just run up to him with blue shield, which lasts quite long if you don't take weapon out, and kill him. He'd be like SPAWN PROTECTION HACKING NOOB. So really, I don't mind both, the spawnprotection is long enough.

Anyways, spawncamping really depends on what your enemy's level is at. If the guy is pretty new and does not know how to counter spawnkilling, you could just keep camping and camping and get kills constantly, or until he leaves. However, if the player is pretty good, it's pretty easy for him to avoid spawncampers, and just doing it against good players will just end up with you dying yourself.

Anyways, I'll answer the 3 questions...

Do you consider spawnkilling a "sin"?
Seeing as not everyone can counter spawnkilling effectively, I see spawncamping as a sin. Spawnkilling however happens all the time, and usually isn't done on purpose.

Would you ban for it if you were admin?
Only if the current players in the server aren't good enough to avoid it. Of course I'd warn the guy before a ban obviously, and probably even a kick, to show I meant it.

Is that blue energy shield a good protection against it?
Yes, it stays on for 8 seconds or something, long enough one would say. Problem however is, that when you take out a gun, the blue shield vanishes, usually rendering new people useless against spawncampers. This would be hard to fix though, seeing as you can't just let the blue shield go on when someone takes his gun out, that would be completely unfair, as there's a big chance someone's less than 8 seconds away from your spawn.

Only really cool people spawnkill. :ey

I see think spawnkilling is when one gets killed without a gun really. The best example is IceWorld with 15 people on I'd say. You spawn and get killed just as you pick up a gun usually.

Do you consider spawnkilling a "sin"?

Er, under certain circumstances. Like if it was done repeatedly.

Would you ban for it if you were admin?

Like Clix said, warn-kick-ban.

Is that blue energy shield a good protection against it?

It depends if it's been altered. The time of it can be changed. 8 Seconds is ok, but as you usually spawn right next to guns, the shield disapears instantly really.

Mandalore wrote:[Semi-Offtopicness] Allan, why don't you add the blue bubble as protection for people who're typing in your Anti-TK mod? [/Semi-Offtopicness]

If you did that then everyone could run around with protect bubbles / press t in middle of battle to not die.


Do you consider spawnkilling a "sin"?
It is extremely frustrating if you are the victim and very boring if you are the comitter.

Would you ban for it if you were admin?
If someone was doing it repeatedly then warn, if he doesnt stop then kick, if he comes back again and does it more bancake.

Is that blue energy shield a good protection against it?
Sometimes you dont have enough time to get your weapons before it disappears (iceworld / teammates standing in way / lagging). Also, if the person is streaked on augs or he is getting a medkit from your body each time, it becomes almost impossible to kill him whereas if you had a chance to go get a lam or whatever you get a chance to stop him.

Magus wrote:Why? Nothing to it - point the gun at a green and shoot until dead.

I do it with a passion, and it is like a game of hunting with me.

Ask any member who was from [V] or the Irish.

'Moot' is quite an archaic term when used outside of Law. I think you should call it something like "debatable issues" or "(current) debatable topics in DX."

Inferno wrote:

Magus wrote:Why? Nothing to it - point the gun at a green and shoot until dead.

I do it with a passion, and it is like a game of hunting with me.

Ask any member who was from [V] or the Irish.

Let me guess... you don't like Keith.

i have often been killed by ppl with blue shields, coz i have no way of killing them... =/
________
Sv1000

Did the chicken come before the egg? Spawncampers bring spawnkilling upon themselves, but then I do not enjoy to see new players being mercilessly subdued, but then someone else will say " good training"...

Unfortunately players seek high scores not high honour, therefore spwnkilling, excessive use of force, using LAW against spwnrooms, planting lams in spwnroom doors and exits will always exist.

One point people should consider - Maps like Tunnel Network, Damnation Alley and Galaxy are designed to encourage spwnkilling. Each team is given a small base with everything they need, a turret, nades, bio, med etc...

Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to attack the enemy base. But remember, in real life too, the victor knows when to stop killing, like on the Basra road in 1991, but in DX unfortunately there is no team objective and people chase high scores...therefore there is no reason to stop a spawnkilling.

My GF is a new player, she commented that people are:

sick

...because they camp in her spwnroom waiting for her blue shield to disappear...

I prefer to gain respect than the highest score, however I have been spawnkilled so many times that I do as I have been treated and I am a spawnkiller until further notice. I don't understand the question about the shield. It lasts 15 seconds and then you are fair game. If you happen to be still standing in your spwnroom without a wep, then you are still fair game.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I AGREE WITH CLIX AND KAIDEN, IT NEEDS TO BE MODERATED. But don't get silly, are you gonna kick people for shooting people who are lying down? Are you gonna kick someone who uses only plasma repeatedly? Are you gonna kick someone for winning, being a threat, deceiving the enemy, exploiting enemy weakness? Do it with extreme caution...

I wouldn't kick someone for Spawnkilling because I agree with those who said that blue shield thing should give adequate protection to get out of the spawn area.

However, I think most of us should know from experience that when starting out, it's fucking annoying getting spawnkilled constantly. For newbies, I think it's unfair. For anyone else, well I don't give a shit.

There's spawnkilling and spwnkilling... I never kill anyone in their spwnroom who is:

1. not aware of my presence.
2. not in posession a weapon.
3. asked me not to.

The important thing to remember is that the new player has not probably even fired ONE shot. He left the spwnroom and got sniped immediately, he is wondering how he is ever going to improve unless he can get into a fight and duel and see the effect of his aim and tactics etc...

So spawnkill all you like, but ffs give the guy a chance... wait until he has noticed you, got a wep, has prepared to fire, fired a little or a lot at you...
THEN rip his head off... This is what makes Xikron such a great player, I saw him do this several times on GODZ spwnrooms, he would be surrounded by experienced players, but he would give the noob some target practice...then blow his head off

No I wouldn't ban it, assuming the map is smuggler. It's asking for trouble to do that, sometimes it is necessary to spwncamp, or be near the enemy spwn, u can't ban spwnkilling as long as teamkilling and unbalanced teams exist. If the rest of my team is AFK or teamkilling and I am the only one giving a serious fight, and let' say the enemy team has an elite player doing all the killing, while his team chat, why should I not be allowed to catch them with their pants down? It's part of war... Do you think Hitler said " No we wont bomb the RAF in their bases, we'll wait till they have dropped their bombs on us!" - Don't make me laugh... ban? how?

I love the way you compare war extremists to Deus Ex.

A "beta" version
http://www.dxalpha.com/kb/debatable-issues/spawnkilling

Looks nice; lol at this comment though:

The spawn protection shield doesn't protect you at all really, all you need is some ass standing behind you with a shotgun ready to blow your brains out. —Gishank

~[A]Kaiden~ wrote:I love the way you compare war extremists to Deus Ex.

yeah, I learned this technique from [A]forums...

I guess Clix is totally right, but I guess it's like the army...noobs get bullied and as I was someone who was incessantly spwnkilled and teamkilled on GODZ in the beginning, I am only too ready to dish out the cycle of abuse to the next noob. I think a lot of players do the same at intermediate level, they have the skill to run in a room and kill 3-5 people and then repeat it perhaps, but they don't have the skill to own Clix or Spaz etc... yet!

Today I played smuggles and both teams were attacking the enemy bases, then at one point someone started shooting his own team in the spwnroom and some players stopped fighting and tried to talk to this player so were not camping but kind of afk/convo, then just to confuse things players on both sides had the wrong skins due to autobalance:teamswapping. Suddenly spwnkilling and being spwnkilled did not become fun anymore and I could see a point in not ever allowing enemy into a spwnroom...

Also I noticed that as I attacked the enemy spwnroom, I was not firing at anyone with a blue shield anyway... I automatically and subconsciously was aiming at the most imminent threat...i.e someone non-blue shield who was exiting spwnroom and firing at me, so I didn't really actually spwnkill anyone, even though I was in the room, so I can see a point in allowing it, until someone objects... but probably it was too late, and probably it was admin or someone helpful explaining how to activate the scope etc who got spwnkilled, not the new player...

Noobs should just learn to run away, if they can't figure this out by watching others, then perhaps they deserve the lesson the hard way?

ShadowRunner wrote:

~[A]Kaiden~ wrote:I love the way you compare war extremists to Deus Ex.

yeah, I learned this technique from [A]forums...

I guess Clix is totally right, but I guess it's like the army...noobs get bullied and as I was someone who was incessantly spwnkilled and teamkilled on GODZ in the beginning, I am only too ready to dish out the cycle of abuse to the next noob. I think a lot of players do the same at intermediate level, they have the skill to run in a room and kill 3-5 people and then repeat it perhaps, but they don't have the skill to own Clix or Spaz etc... yet!

Today I played smuggles and both teams were attacking the enemy bases, then at one point someone started shooting his own team in the spwnroom and some players stopped fighting and tried to talk to this player so were not camping but kind of afk/convo, then just to confuse things players on both sides had the wrong skins due to autobalance:teamswapping. Suddenly spwnkilling and being spwnkilled did not become fun anymore and I could see a point in not ever allowing enemy into a spwnroom...

Also I noticed that as I attacked the enemy spwnroom, I was not firing at anyone with a blue shield anyway... I automatically and subconsciously was aiming at the most imminent threat...i.e someone non-blue shield who was exiting spwnroom and firing at me, so I didn't really actually spwnkill anyone, even though I was in the room, so I can see a point in allowing it, until someone objects... but probably it was too late, and probably it was admin or someone helpful explaining how to activate the scope etc who got spwnkilled, not the new player...

Noobs should just learn to run away, if they can't figure this out by watching others, then perhaps they deserve the lesson the hard way?

LOL at you comparing Spaz to Clix. ROFL

Spaz and Clix LOL

No were near each other in skill...

0 augs: Clix>Spaz
Atdm: Spaz>Clix

=o

~GrimRaPeR~ wrote:0 augs: Clix>Spaz
Atdm: Spaz>Clix

=o

..... no no no.

0 augs and ATDM = Clix > Spaz.

ShadowRunner wrote:
Today I played smuggles and both teams were attacking the enemy bases, then at one point someone started shooting his own team in the spwnroom and some players stopped fighting and tried to talk to this player so were not camping but kind of afk/convo, then just to confuse things players on both sides had the wrong skins due to autobalance:teamswapping. Suddenly spwnkilling and being spwnkilled did not become fun anymore and I could see a point in not ever allowing enemy into a spwnroom...

Also I noticed that as I attacked the enemy spwnroom, I was not firing at anyone with a blue shield anyway... I automatically and subconsciously was aiming at the most imminent threat...i.e someone non-blue shield who was exiting spwnroom and firing at me, so I didn't really actually spwnkill anyone, even though I was in the room, so I can see a point in allowing it, until someone objects... but probably it was too late, and probably it was admin or someone helpful explaining how to activate the scope etc who got spwnkilled, not the new player...

Indeed, 'twas a very hairy match... Which I (somehow) got a high score in!