Bioshock Infinite

[Tantalus]

Are game norms that much looser? Games are more complex, yes, but there are still requirements for a game to be labelled a game; a definition can only stretch so far. No matter how pseudo-deep a game wants to get, it will always have a player character of some sort, controls, progression...hopefully entertainment.

I'm not really understanding what else you're trying to say soooo...

I've talked about this enough, but this applies how I feel about the whole 'art game' thing to a real world example.
[youtube]youtube.com/watch?v=AiyOqPAdBJg[/youtube]

[Aidan]

Lol Jake we should just copy and paste our art debate in here.

[Tantalus]

This is fucking great, make some more topics before this momentum peters out again!

[Siva]

I've talked about this enough, but this applies how I feel about the whole 'art game' thing to a real world example.

im gonna do u a fav and ignore that u brought fez into the topic

player character of some sort

age of empires

controls

well, yeah. a vehicle also requires controls. there's a world of difference between a bike and a plane.

progression

again, it varies wildly

I'm not really understanding what else you're trying to say soooo...

games are fucking art not tables

[Aidan]

games are fucking art not tables

[Siva]

games are fucking art not tables

thx for proving my point

[Aidan]

[Siva]

i swer 2 god

[Aidan]

Yeah man, I'm feeling a table forum.

[Siva]

once when i was a kid i decided to invent some slang so i replaced the word cool with table

it caught on and i promptly stopped

[Aidan]

Haha, that's hilarious. If you kept it going it could have advanced to hash tags man.

[Siva]

to think there was a time when humanity didnt have hashtags

i mean wtf did we do in hashtag moments

i sense the thread will be cleaned up at sum point

[Psychotic]

It's good to talk about it. Just agreeing to disagree gets nothing done; although it does detract HUGELY from the original post.

Of course it's good to disagree and debate about things, don't you think I, of all people, know that?

However, there are certain debates which don't tend to get anywhere. This is one of them.

So debate your discussions, question their answers, but ultimately I've found that art is subjective in all areas. I say games can exhibit art but they do not have to be artwork themselves, some disagree.

Even if a general consensus was made and someone made video games an official form of art what would they actually accomplish? It's not in a games nature to be seen as a piece of art. I believe you cannot make a game that is also a piece of art in and of itself because then it defies the very definition of a game, but one can and certainly does exhibit art.

[Aidan]

Art is a liquid term and thus hard to pinpoint a direct meaning on. We are all wrong AND right.


There.

[Clancy Stein]

When it comes to controls it needs to be intuitive. If you can play a game seamlessly, you are no longer just a captovated audience, you are a character in this illusory universe constructed in part by its architect but the depth of it COMPLETED by your imagination and immersion.

It is an experience.

Edit: cellphone typos too lazy to correct

[Psychotic]

Art is a liquid term and thus hard to pinpoint a direct meaning on. We are all wrong AND right.


There.

I already said that but blah, whatever.

[Tantalus]

im gonna do u a fav and ignore that u brought fez into the topic

Why? It's a pretentious faux-artsy pos made by a dick.

age of empires

A disembodied omnipresent God-like character with little explanation - still a player character.

well, yeah. a vehicle also requires controls. there's a world of difference between a bike and a plane.

Vehicles also can't be art under this definition.

progression

In what events happen, but there's always a beginning, middle and end narrative or linear progression to player actions.

I'm not really understanding what else you're trying to say soooo...

Still applies.

Also,

TABLES.JPG

MFW you just proved my point with tables that are coerced into having a flat surface for HOLDING THINGS. Think of the playing part of a game as that flat surface, it's a design constraint that prevents it from being 'unhinged'.

[Siva]

MFW you just proved my point with tables that are coerced into having a flat surface for HOLDING THINGS. Think of the playing part of a game as that flat surface, it's a design constraint that prevents it from being 'unhinged'.

I'm not really understanding what else you're trying to say soooo...

Then please, listen when I say this because I aint gonna repeat myself again, you aint even readin what i'm sayin at this point

the table requiring flatness is a much, much harder constraint to work with without compromising functionality if you want to incorporate art into the composition of the table, rather than a game. to make it as simple the analogy itself is shit, and if the basis of your argument is this analogy then i had it right the first time

Why? It's a pretentious faux-artsy pos made by a dick.

which is exactly why it has no place in this discussion. i am trying to explain to you that good games are the ones that achieve both game and art status without sacrificing their own identity. if you take the art out of super metroid and replace it with something lesser the entire experience suffers, i wont suffer that to be denied

[Tantalus]

I'm saying that a table cannot be art, read above for reasons why. Attempts at giving it an artistic element don't make it art; it's not art in itself, it's a table with artistic elements to it.

A game is not art because it has to be a game. Its restrictions are not looser, any restrictions kill art. There are NO restrictions with a canvas, it's a surface designed to have something impressed on to it. There are no restrictions with music, music can be freaking wacky, unlistenable, messy, loud, a mixture of everyday sounds looped, or complete silence. That doesn't necessarily make it inherently good, what is GOOD art is subjective. The primary point is: stop confusing art with inherent goodness. Which brings me on to Super Metroid:

WHAT ART IN SUPER METROID?! It's a wonderful game, but just because it's fun, engaging, spooky at times, tight in controls doesn't make it art. The atmosphere and design of Columbia in Bioshock Infinite is orchestrated brilliantly, but it's not art for that reason. As James has said, suggesting games can be art draws away from the significant objectives of games: entertainment, joy, engagement, 'controllability'. It's a non-issue. Calling games art contradicts the definition of art, and flies in the face of games as entertainment at the same time. Stop focusing on trying to 'elevate' games to some higher status, because it'll only drag it through the gutter.

[Siva]

I'm saying that a table cannot be art

table cannot be art

WHAT ART IN SUPER METROID?!

WOW SO SUPER METROID IS A TEXT BASED ADVENTURE!? HOLY SHIT
and even it were i would still be right motherfucker

[Tantalus]

You keep just showing that picture, and that picture still proves my point. I'm saying the same thing ad nauseum.

Super Metroid's graphics MAY have artistic elements when in isolation. BUT it's not art when used for another purpose: PLAYING A GAME.

How are you not getting this? Are you even reading anymore?












Still, that's a damn nice looking table. Not art, mind you, but nice.

[Siva]

[clyzm]

Jake so you think this isn't art



I'm guessing you probably also think this isn't art



It's just a bowling pin with artistic elements



Log that fell over in the woods with artistic elements



Piece of paper with artistic elements copied from another piece of paper



Come on son

[Psychotic]

Actually, I'd argue the last one isn't art in and of itself.

A lot of people classify drawings as artwork and I can see why (they generally try to replicate nature or evoke someone's senses) but go look on deviantART and tell me how many of the drawings or photographs are simply what they are: drawings and photographs.

Just because you created it does not make it art, but just because it's a creation does not mean it can't be art.

My definition of art has always been that of the less technical. Art and design share many principles but one is less about the function and more about the work itself and it's potential meaning (art). The other is about creating something that has a set purpose.

You don't design art but you do design a video game, but the style and themes used in a video game can be just as artistic as in other forms. But the game itself is not, and find game -art- highly misleading.

[Tantalus]

My definition of art has always been that of the less technical. Art and design share many principles but one is less about the function and more about the work itself and it's potential meaning (art). The other is about creating something that has a set purpose.

You don't design art but you do design a video game, but the style and themes used in a video game can be just as artistic as in other forms. But the game itself is not, and find game -art- highly misleading.

Pretty damn good explanation actually. I'm a bit more absolutist and extreme in it, but similar reasoning.

And Derek. Table nope, bowling pins nope, log maaaaaaaybe (although not amazing), picture representing a photo I dunno...maybe that scene had a specific significance to the drawer and they wanted to convey in a different light.

Bowling pins still have the same functional form as a regular bowling pin, if they were a bit more liberal with the design then I would possibly call that art.

[Kaiden]

Back on topic, apparently reviews are great and I've heard nothing but good things myself, look forward to playing it when I can afford it <:

[James]

The art conversation is more interesting than Bioshock Infinite tbh

[Psychotic]

The art conversation is more interesting than Bioshock Infinite tbh

I would rather talk about quantum mechanics and multiple-world theories than arguing over how you define something that has no true definition. This is why the English language has the words "subjective" and "objective", and these are what art is.

BioShock's story is more interesting than an age-old debate that we will never answer. Actually, now that I think about it, that's like most debates.

I just feel there's far more interesting topics to discuss. And I do mean discuss. Debating tends to be nothing more than a circle-jerk of opinions nowadays rather than a gathering of knowledge.

[James]

I feel there's far too many plot holes and character inconsistency/stupidity that weakens the plot (and of the series) along with the execution of the concepts it explored. Which is surprising because it is even more flawed than the average time-travel story.

For me it's very insulting that the game's plot was dramatically altered within the last year of development and a lot of areas were rushed to be remade to reflect this.

[Siva]

BioShock's story is more interesting than an age-old debate

Only on the surface, mate. Under scrutiny or even half decent criticism the cracks begin to show very quickly