Dejavu exploiting

[kBo]

Damn, you have folks are screwed up if you actually think the university will give a shit, even more so like Eidos will give a shit.

Deus Ex the longest running game in the world? What the hell.. who told you that? It came out in 2000. UO has been running since 1998 and still is (beta as long back as maybe 1996 I think(, and that is not the oldest by far.. some games still running date back to the early 90s.

There are several examples I can think of here of the university giving a shit, the most compelling one (to me) being that a kid at a uni in the States hosted a tor (tor.eff.org) exit node on his dorm computer, and someone popped out on hit exit node and hacked someone. Now, this kid didn't even hack anyone, he just unintentionally facilitated the crime. He got expelled.

My dad's a professor a UNC-Chapel Hill (good university), and he just said that as long as they could document it, almost every university/college would take action.

[Dae]

ROFL.

You all seem to be forgetting, after the release of 1112fm all support and interest was dropped, and Eidos/Ion Storm announced they wanted nothing to do with it. Nobody gives a shit about DXMP so you can report all you want, you wont get a response from anyone official. Gamespy wont do fuck all because its not their game and they dont support it, whether they host the MSP or not. From a business point of view: if you didnt make the software, you dont support it. Trying to do so can lead to a whole world of hassle you dont want, take that from experience

The uni being liable is a grey area. You dont know what kind of contracts and wavers are in place. It wouldnt surprise me if such a term to prevent the uni being responsible for individual students actions are in place. If there wasnt such a thing, do you really think the uni and network admins would let students do as they please? If there isnt such a liability waver then that Slovenian Uni's admins are f'kin retards because I'd have the uni locked down tighter than a chastity belt!

If you can make the uni think that the hosting is somehow damaging or threatening to them/their network then sure they might do something. I would not dos dejavu back. a dos attack on a uni would leave them coming down on your like a ton of bricks.

Edit: aso, I think you are associating this all too much with [3]. They dont have the tools, interest, or care enough to do it

I agree with you about dejas uni and about Eidos/IS too, but all I expect is an unofficial advice from Warren. I know that he used to answer e-mails from other Deus Ex community members. But im not contacting him yet because Nephtys developers are already working on the solution.

What about [3] I think deja has spreaded his bot between them.

[Alistair]

my server is up atm

lol had a nice laugh at dejavu editing my MOTD line to

'im a twat' 'fuck off'

funny =]

either he hacked adminlogin or hacked ma pc one or the other

Damn thats very strange.

For Linux users it fairly easy, just block his IP Range at kernel level however Windows users will need a workaround.

[messiah]

...

What about [3] I think deja has spreaded his bot between them.

Now before saying this I'd expect to see some proof thrown in to cover up the accusations instead of being unfair towards the whole clan. Now you shouldn't claim that ~[3]~ is doing such negative things to the pathetic no-aug community, you should rather remember how we provided the whole lame mediocre, augless community the opportunity to learn to play the real Deus Ex the way the producers wanted it to be played. But surely if a bot that destroys the newbish no-aug servers is handed out to me, I would considered using it. Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun. So instead of saying for example that DejaVu is doing something wrong when crushing down no-aug servers you should thank him for doing a favor for you all. Please don't get my reply wrong now, I announced nowhere that I or any other tBoT member used a bot against no-aug servers. But just to fix the upcoming misunderstandings (some no-aug newb will most likely post something idiotic anyway) I said using a bot would be considerable, not that we'd use it. In my opinion it is fair that all of us can have dreams: mine is to have a pure Deus Ex MP game instead of being shamed to hear new players saying: "where are the augs, doood?"

You missed the part where it was said (originally by dejavu) that DejaVu provided [3] with the means to initiate such attacks by themselves. So they have the "tools". Wether or not the leading core of that clan has the interest is another matter.

Now as said to Daedalus already, I assume you have strict and strong evidence to prove that some of the tBoT members initiated attacks against the miserable no-aug servers.

Now surely I was not surprised to see ~[3]~ getting accused once again falsely by some total newbies. But just a hint to gain a little of professional sportsmanship - get the evidence before you start babbling how bad tBoT is and what kind of wankers, spunkmits, twats etc. we are. Otherwise I'd be sad to see another clan becoming the way the [TCN] was.

And about anyone of the official companies such as Eidos giving a damn crap what happens on some newbish MP game that was meant mostly for testing stuff out, please, get real. Why don't you just go straight to the F.B.I agency and ask their help? "This one online guy, DejaVu is his alias and I don't really know his real name but he lives in Europe somewhere, came to Deus Ex and crashed our online, no-aug server. Oh yeah, in Europe he is probably connected with the mob because he knows the Brotherhood of Triad members pretty well and is friends with them. Jollygood, please help us because we really dunno what we should do with him. He's a hardcore hacker!"

...

[Alistair]

Messiah, auging is great and 0 aug can be considered pathetic but we want to help the community.

[Rödewijk]

GJ deja

[Alistair]

One is a fool who destroys the system because he cannot play it. Hes lucky that Dae has contacted an anti-cheat dev team rather than creating some mod to block his IP. Although im sure many users have blocked his IP range from their routers/modems and Linux users have blocked him at kernel level.

[messiah]

See how ungreatful you are: you should thank him for doing what he is doing, not say he can not play no-augs (since that surely ain't a fact).

[Alistair]

You really think his main concern is nukin zero aug servers? That guy has personal issues with alot of other DX players which many of us are concerned about.

[Alex]

...

What about [3] I think deja has spreaded his bot between them.

Now before saying this I'd expect to see some proof thrown in to cover up the accusations instead of being unfair towards the whole clan. Now you shouldn't claim that ~[3]~ is doing such negative things to the pathetic no-aug community, you should rather remember how we provided the whole lame mediocre, augless community the opportunity to learn to play the real Deus Ex the way the producers wanted it to be played. But surely if a bot that destroys the newbish no-aug servers is handed out to me, I would considered using it. Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun. So instead of saying for example that DejaVu is doing something wrong when crushing down no-aug servers you should thank him for doing a favor for you all. Please don't get my reply wrong now, I announced nowhere that I or any other tBoT member used a bot against no-aug servers. But just to fix the upcoming misunderstandings (some no-aug newb will most likely post something idiotic anyway) I said using a bot would be considerable, not that we'd use it. In my opinion it is fair that all of us can have dreams: mine is to have a pure Deus Ex MP game instead of being shamed to hear new players saying: "where are the augs, doood?"

You missed the part where it was said (originally by dejavu) that DejaVu provided [3] with the means to initiate such attacks by themselves. So they have the "tools". Wether or not the leading core of that clan has the interest is another matter.

Now as said to Daedalus already, I assume you have strict and strong evidence to prove that some of the tBoT members initiated attacks against the miserable no-aug servers.

Now surely I was not surprised to see ~[3]~ getting accused once again falsely by some total newbies. But just a hint to gain a little of professional sportsmanship - get the evidence before you start babbling how bad tBoT is and what kind of wankers, spunkmits, twats etc. we are. Otherwise I'd be sad to see another clan becoming the way the [TCN] was.

And about anyone of the official companies such as Eidos giving a damn crap what happens on some newbish MP game that was meant mostly for testing stuff out, please, get real. Why don't you just go straight to the F.B.I agency and ask their help? "This one online guy, DejaVu is his alias and I don't really know his real name but he lives in Europe somewhere, came to Deus Ex and crashed our online, no-aug server. Oh yeah, in Europe he is probably connected with the mob because he knows the Brotherhood of Triad members pretty well and is friends with them. Jollygood, please help us because we really dunno what we should do with him. He's a hardcore hacker!"

...

So you say DejaVu is a liar?

I quote:

-- says:
it isnt me.. so you will know
-- says:
but im source of it
Alexander - | Sensan tsjil melta. | says:
source of what?
-- says:
its triad who control it
-- says:
now blame them all if you can
Alexander - | Sensan tsjil melta. | says:
you're the source of what?
-- says:
i just coded shit

[messiah]

Ahh the great QuoteMan is back. No, I would not call Dejavu a liar. But I supposedly I have to do an exception now since I can not understand why he would say something like that.

You can trust me on the fact that if tBoT ever decides to use this great opportunity to make Deus Strike back to Deus Ex again, we will inform it publicly with honour and pride.

[Ste]

Ok 2 things about the above post:

1. It could have been made in notepad and placed in that post

2. Its real and its a lie, i will speak here for both [3] and [G3] and say we do not control any form of "bots" for Dejavu or anybody else.

We have no part in what is occuring what so ever.

[Alex]

The only part I edited in that part of conversation, was placing 'says' instead of 'zegt'.

[Dae]

...

What about [3] I think deja has spreaded his bot between them.

Now before saying this I'd expect to see some proof thrown in to cover up the accusations instead of being unfair towards the whole clan. Now you shouldn't claim that ~[3]~ is doing such negative things to the pathetic no-aug community, you should rather remember how we provided the whole lame mediocre, augless community the opportunity to learn to play the real Deus Ex the way the producers wanted it to be played. But surely if a bot that destroys the newbish no-aug servers is handed out to me, I would considered using it. Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun. So instead of saying for example that DejaVu is doing something wrong when crushing down no-aug servers you should thank him for doing a favor for you all. Please don't get my reply wrong now, I announced nowhere that I or any other tBoT member used a bot against no-aug servers. But just to fix the upcoming misunderstandings (some no-aug newb will most likely post something idiotic anyway) I said using a bot would be considerable, not that we'd use it. In my opinion it is fair that all of us can have dreams: mine is to have a pure Deus Ex MP game instead of being shamed to hear new players saying: "where are the augs, doood?"

You missed the part where it was said (originally by dejavu) that DejaVu provided [3] with the means to initiate such attacks by themselves. So they have the "tools". Wether or not the leading core of that clan has the interest is another matter.

Now as said to Daedalus already, I assume you have strict and strong evidence to prove that some of the tBoT members initiated attacks against the miserable no-aug servers.

Now surely I was not surprised to see ~[3]~ getting accused once again falsely by some total newbies. But just a hint to gain a little of professional sportsmanship - get the evidence before you start babbling how bad tBoT is and what kind of wankers, spunkmits, twats etc. we are. Otherwise I'd be sad to see another clan becoming the way the [TCN] was.

And about anyone of the official companies such as Eidos giving a damn crap what happens on some newbish MP game that was meant mostly for testing stuff out, please, get real. Why don't you just go straight to the F.B.I agency and ask their help? "This one online guy, DejaVu is his alias and I don't really know his real name but he lives in Europe somewhere, came to Deus Ex and crashed our online, no-aug server. Oh yeah, in Europe he is probably connected with the mob because he knows the Brotherhood of Triad members pretty well and is friends with them. Jollygood, please help us because we really dunno what we should do with him. He's a hardcore hacker!"

...

Sorry, but should 0aug exist or not is not your business. None deja's, none anyone else in the community. Not to mention that you or whoever set the bot up, destroyed servers with different to 0aug gametypes, like Jim Bowen's server, which is amazing imo. And you cannot imagine how much effort he has put in it.

What about your statement that "it will bring more fun for everyone", it is completely based on your selfishness. If augs/ATDM really were THAT interesting, they would not have become history now. And all that you (or any other augger) want is to be the bestest (like in old times) between newbies from zero-aug community attempting to play augs. You want to play in conditions you got used to, but a lot of people haven't got used to them and they don't want to.

What about developers. They didn't actually declare that they don't want 0augs in DXMP. More than, if you ever played singleplayer (I doubt it), you would notice that augs aren't that important in the game...

I don't defend any gametype. I believe that every game type has a right to exist. And only statistics may say which one is better. Aug servers are the least visited in the community during last years.

Me and, I'm sure, the most of visitors of this forum don't really want "more fun" from augs. Such thing depends on what kind of person you're.

And trust me, attacking the servers will not lead anywhere since most of us now have the exploit and destroying an aug server is a question of a dozen of seconds. And it won't be a problem to be a bot.

And the last thing. You pretend to be smart in that post, but your smartness is being darkened by the most dumb thing that ever existed in humanity: discrimination. Discrimation by gameplaying skills only shows how they're important for you. What a loser you're.

[Zantinzuken]

Ahh the great QuoteMan is back. No, I would not call Dejavu a liar. But I supposedly I have to do an exception now since I can not understand why he would say something like that.

You can trust me on the fact that if tBoT ever decides to use this great opportunity to make Deus Strike back to Deus Ex again, we will inform it publicly with honour and pride.

You actually think by taking down 0-aug servers that it'll bring it back to the way it was? You're deluded. It will NEVER be the same as it was, especially not by taking down servers. People will just leave, killing the game off.

[kBo]

Everyone needs to stop bickering about augs vs. 0-augs and who said what and all that childish bullshit. This topic is not about augs vs. 0-augs. This topic is about DejaVu being a prick and shutting down DXMP servers using someone else's code he is claiming largely as his own work.

Now Messiah, I have mad respect for you, and forgive me if I misinterpret what you said (and even if I did, a lot of people should still listen to what I'm saying here because it's true), but saying

See how ungreatful you are: you should thank him for doing what he is doing, not say he can not play no-augs (since that surely ain't a fact)

sure as hell sounds like you're condoning DejaVu's activity. Now, you may not like 0-augs, you may not like anyone on these forums, but shutting down servers is not the way to make your feelings known.

I am a hacker. I have cracked people's systems. I don't anymore. I do condone hacktivism in certain cases (that's another story), but this is just foolish! Not only is this killing off the 0-aug community (which should even exist per se as the rivalry between the two divisions is just as idiotic as racism), but it's also killing off the DXMP community as a whole. There are plenty of people (or at least there used to be, decency is hard to come by nowadays in this community) who don't care how many augs they get, as long as they get to play the damn game. As soon as someone starts systematically killing off a portion of the servers, those people who just play because they love to play and don't care how well they do will stop loving the game and stop wanting to play.

This disgusts me.

EDIT: Messiah, I'm not going to bother finding the post right now, but I know I saw somewhere that DejaVu said he gave the bot out to [3]. It may be apocryphal, it may not be true. I don't know. All I'm saying is, that's the word on the street and you shouldn't blow up at people for just reiterating what they heard.

[Mastakilla]

But surely if a bot that destroys the newbish no-aug servers is handed out to me, I would considered using it. Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun.

You don't have the right to decide whats good for us or any other 0 augger.
Nothing personally, but, fuck off.

[messiah]

1.) Sorry, but should 0aug exist or not is not your business.
2.) What about your statement that "it will bring more fun for everyone", it is completely based on your selfishness.
3.) What about developers. They didn't actually declare that they don't want 0augs in DXMP. More than, if you ever played singleplayer (I doubt it), you would notice that augs aren't that important in the game...
4.) I don't defend any gametype. I believe that every game type has a right to exist.
5.) And trust me, attacking the servers will not lead anywhere since most of us now have the exploit and destroying an aug server is a question of a dozen of seconds. And it won't be a problem to be a bot.
6.) And the last thing. You pretend to be smart in that post, but your smartness is being darkened by the most dumb thing that ever existed in humanity: discrimination.

1.) I have never said it is in my hands nor my decision. If it'd be, we'd all know the result. The perfect Deus Ex in all ways.
2.) Humor, irony, anyone? You say I pretend to be smart...well, I suppose you aren't.
3.) Who gives a shit about the single player first of all? Second, sure it is not hard to beat the game without augs but omfg, Deus Ex was awarded the best game of year because of it's unique gaming style - augmentations, DOH? Now you at least proved my point on #2.
4.) Sure. But no-augging should not be connected to Deus Ex in any way. It is a caricature of Deus Ex.
5.) So what are you saying, you are going to destroy our servers because someone attacked yours? Well you sure can count on the fact yours will be fucked up then for good, too. Kind of like saying: "My laptop was stolen. I don't know who it was but I'm stealing your's." Fairness seems to be your motto.
6.) Why would I need to pretend to be smart? Maybe it is a compulsory for you to act smart since at least for most of us it either comes out naturally or then it do not come. I'm only talking english and pure facts. You should not accuse me of discrimination since I said nowhere I approve the way no-aug servers are being crushed. But sure, I neither said I disapprove it. Call me a racist then, I really care very much.

1.) You actually think by taking down 0-aug servers that it'll bring it back to the way it was?
2.) You're deluded.
3.) It will NEVER be the same as it was, especially not by taking down servers.
4.) People will just leave, killing the game off.

1.) No, I do not. I have never said anything like this.
2.) Hardly. A basic realist, I'd rather say.
3.) Yup, it will not. I have never said this either.
4.) Perhaps, you can never predict what will happen tomorrow. If you could, I'd be a millionare.

Finnish fag, why don't you learn to build a sauna properly, like in Russia, not some Finland-ised piece of crap.

Rofl. You russians still pissed off when the whole world laughed at you back in the Winter War 1939-1940 when Finns beated your half a million guys with what, 50.000 guys? And btw, the sauna has been invented in Finland. You might got your banja which reminds a normal sauna a bit but it is different when it comes to temperature, moist etc. So rather brag about something else than Russian saunas.

Now kBo here sounds like an intelligent fellah. Precise and patient with his words instead of mad accusing which leads nowhere (without any solid evidence, that is). To answer you, I said nowhere I think taking no-aug servers down completely this way is right. Impartially, it is wrong and therefore I don't see myself doing it. But I must admit I do not feel any real sympathy towards the no-aug players. Now I can be blamed for being mean, malicious or evil because I feel this way but I doubt no-auggers would feel anything negative if all augged servers would be crashed 100%.

1.) You don't have the right to decide whats good for us or any other 0 augger.
2.) Nothing personally, but, fuck off.

1.) Sometimes the God has to decide what is good for his children.
2.) It is "nothing personal" and thank you, perhaps I will.

[MainMan]

Finnish fag, why don't you learn to build a sauna properly, like in Russia, not some Finland-ised piece of crap.

Rofl. You russians still pissed off when the whole world laughed at you back in the Winter War 1939-1940 when Finns beated your half a million guys with what, 50.000 guys? And btw, the sauna has been invented in Finland. You might got your banja which reminds a normal sauna a bit but it is different when it comes to temperature, moist etc. So rather brag about something else than Russian saunas.

Sorry, I realised that my post was out of line so I deleted it before you and Kbo posted. I don't actually have anything against you I was just having a laugh. Sorry.

[Amme]

Not that I give a fuck about any of this, but I wrote Deja an Email, and here's his reply.

He's got a few points in what he's saying, though.

Code: Select all

lol, i had this on just for some testing, used only 30 bots and they did quite a mess.

ive let the source and instructions how to use it to triad. i and myself dont know if i will play any games nor dxmp anymore. guess ive grown over it, dont feel any need to play games.

im happy to see, that the bot actually worked. with some small fixes, it can be improved very much and 0aug community dead if like 3 players want that.

btw, think about this. why augged community hasnt got new fully augged player for months? the only one i think about, that joined in past 6 months is Sike. 0aug is taking new players. if you really love augs, you know that its most enjoyable on a full server. without players, theres no full server and theres no enjoyment. 0aug is indirectly affecting augs. by taking down all 0aug servers, the object is not to force current players to play augs, but to show new players augging style of game as the only DXMP style, for which DXMP should be known, since no other game has augs and skill system like DXMP has.

i dont mind if 0auggers put their servers on special MasterServer (in fact, they already have one hosted by FGS if i remember right).

i hope you understand what am i saying.

hf&gl cu
DejaVu


[Zantinzuken]

You can trust me on the fact that if tBoT ever decides to use this great opportunity to make Deus Strike back to Deus Ex again, we will inform it publicly with honour and pride.

1.) No, I do not. I have never said anything like this.

Right. By saying "make deus strike back to deus ex" it appeared that way. You might want to rephrase that.

Deja isn't helping the game at all, nor should his actions be condoned.

[kBo]

First of all, what the hell is Deus Strike?

Second of all, will someone please lock this?

[Zantinzuken]

It's like Counterstrike, many auggers believe 0-augs is just another counterstrike.

[kBo]

Ooh then many auggers are fools on that account. Deus Ex without augs is (well can be) much faster than CS, battles take a lot longer, and there's a lot less strategy.

[Whiplash]

Ok this is gone too far. Every [3] member I've talked with/read posts of in the last few days has been unambiguously supportive of DejaVu's attacks on the Deus Ex community.

Logically, that will lead some to assume that [3] or some of its members are directly involved, turning a blind eye, cheering him on or whatever.

Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun. So instead of saying for example that DejaVu is doing something wrong when crushing down no-aug servers you should thank him for doing a favor for you all.

Blow it out your ass triad prick, some of us actually ENJOY 0-Aug play for what it is, not subscribing to some idiotic "I'm better than you because I play a different game style" or "YOU'D have more fun if YOU played it MY way." Personally I view augs as complicating the game especially in an ATDM situation. I just like to get out there, sneak around a little, take turrets, and get into gun battles. Simple, straightforward and fun. That's why I play in 0-Aug servers. So DejaVu most certainly has not done me any "favours" by taking down the servers most people play in.

You think Augs play is so goddamn great? Then YOU go fucking play augs on your own clan servers or where and leave the rest of us the hell alone.

[kBo]

Someone please tell me if this Whiplash is someone important before I blow holes the size of a hooker's pussy in his logic for reinitiating the flaming in this thread.

Something for all you people *cough*Whiplash*cough* to think about after you realize you're a cunt for not reading what people write:

I said nowhere I think taking no-aug servers down completely this way is right. Impartially, it is wrong and therefore I don't see myself doing it.

[Whiplash]

No. Blow all the holes you like, FWIW I just saw this crap now for the first time. You can't go around saying the kind of crap that the triads have been saying and not expect to be flamed.

I had been trying to avoid DX politics these last few months but this is just too much to be believed.

Will someone please lock this thread?

[Alistair]

0 aug is a pile of shit compared to the real deus ex gameplay although I have got alot of fun and competition out of them His attacks are not justifyed and so is Messiah's "points"

[clyzm]

Damn, Messiah turned into an aug prick.

The perfect Deus Ex in all ways.

The perfect Deus Ex is not augs, nor is it 0 augs. The perfect Deus Ex lets you choose what you want to play instead of forcing it on you.

Who gives a shit about the single player first of all?

That's low. DXMP is nothing, a pure waste of game without Single player. Single Player is MORE important than DXMP. Don't forget, they made single player first, then they made DXMP. DXMP is an attachment to it, and it is turning out to be a liability.

4.) Sure. But no-augging should not be connected to Deus Ex in any way. It is a caricature of Deus Ex.

If you're not related to anyone who made the game, then you have no say in this.

I'm only talking english and pure facts.

Your brain recongizes your useless ramblings as "facts", but that's your brain, as we all know, it is damaged.

You should not accuse me of discrimination since I said nowhere I approve the way no-aug servers are being crushed.

ut surely if a bot that destroys the newbish no-aug servers is handed out to me, I would considered using it. Not because I would want to ruin your fun, just because I would want you to have even more fun. So instead of saying for example that DejaVu is doing something wrong when crushing down no-aug servers you should thank him for doing a favor for you all.

Congratulations, you owned yourself.

More?

1.) No, I do not. I have never said anything like this.

you should rather remember how we provided the whole lame mediocre, augless community the opportunity to learn to play the real Deus Ex the way the producers wanted it to be played.

Damn, I don't have to type anything, you contradict yourself with your own words.

Personally I don't care how much skill you have, you attitude is shit. But I can guess that from all auggers, they may be good players but their attitude is cocky, arrogant and ignorant, like you.

[Dae]

Sure. But no-augging should not be connected to Deus Ex in any way. It is a caricature of Deus Ex.

Old school players trying to bring back their old times -- that's really a caricature of Deus Ex.

The perfect Deus Ex in all ways.

I believe that there is no perfect things in the world. Something can be perfect probably only in subjective perception (in this case, in your comprehension) In my comprehension, Deus Ex was almost perfect (besides the fact that there is not many players) before deja's attacks. I can't imagine it without many other servers (including modded ones!) running without augs.
And will you also deny the fact, that developers expected Deus Ex to be modified?

Who gives a shit about the single player first of all? Second, sure it is not hard to beat the game without augs but omfg, Deus Ex was awarded the best game of year because of it's unique gaming style - augmentations, DOH?

I thought it was awarded GOTY for it's singleplayer, exactly: story and atmosphere in combination with RPG elements like skills and augs. Augs play secondary role here... don't overestimate them in singleplayer. Snowblind has them too, but it's a shit game.

So what are you saying, you are going to destroy our servers because someone attacked yours My laptop was stolen. I don't know who it was but I'm stealing your's

Yea, but it's more like:
I'm stealing yours laptop because you have let them steal mine (undoubtfully for gaining some profit... otherwise why would you?)

What about discrimination, you claim that we're total newbies (probably in comparison with you, very leet auggers), don't you? I took it as offense, or you just want to say that all auggers play the game better? Like hell they do.